Drama

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Anton Maiof
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Drama

Post by Anton Maiof » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:02 pm

Let's start with a song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjnHqdjwwSs

Recently there have been a few posts regarding some little nit-picks towards others. It has caused me to not log in for a while, and I'm only saying this now because no one else seems to have (maybe they did, I have a habit of missing the point)

Like most of the human race I flip flop between ecstatic love and utter despair and disappointment. Within what I would often, albeit perhaps pretentiously, refer to as "my work" I also flip flop. It is between these moments when I think I suck beyond belief and those other times when I feel so wonderfully confident in my genius that lies the truth. I did do something and in the end once it is put out there it is no longer mine to judge how valid it is.

How many wonderful performers, writers, composers, comedians, poets, painters, sculptors, cartoonists etc etc etc have you met in your own life and wondered why they languish in obscurity? Personally I know a fucking shitload (a large unit of measurement for non-english friends) of brilliant artists who struggle to make a living from truly inspired work.

The truth is none of us (being the musicians / producers) are in charge of what the larger world will do with the work we make. It is up to someone else to place a value on it. This is why phrases like "Better" have no place.

I don't like Coldplay for example, in fact I might go as far to say that I absolutely loathe them and would prefer if their presence in the popular consciousness was removed entirely, however millions of people do like them, nay: LOVE them. What is the value of my opinion? Some might look at my schooling or something and say that I have a more informed opinion of music. Would they be right? No, actually no one is right.

I'm not a huge fan of Benjamin Britten, someone who is considered within circles of people who "know shit about music" to be good. I would rather listen to V/VM

That is called TASTE

You know this already, I know you know, and you know I know you know that I know.

So please, can we all get on with the task of making music now?

I look forward to what you have to offer.

(I could probably put this more eloquently, sorry.)

Neurotic
Posts: 74
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Re: Drama

Post by Neurotic » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:38 pm

I think a few of us had made this point but it doesn't hurt to have it restated, it's nice to know when people're thinking along the right lines. However, there's no harm in a bit of drama. Healthy competition and animosity is good when you're creating, just as long as it doesn't start getting nasty. The "drama" basically started when a guy thought, as we all do from time to time and as you stated, "There's tonnes of beige bilge getting raved about, my stuff's a bit better than it, I'll show 'em". But instead of doing what a lot of us (me included) do and chickening out, just posting stuff up and going back to working on stuff and hoping people noticed, he "broke omerta" and actually stated that it was bullshit. It's good that he did because it provoked an interesting discussion and several people showed their true colours. As long as it doesn't get nasty and turn into personal vendettas, this isn't a bad thing. It did spill over a bit into getting personal which was a shame but it's a nice break between the self promotion and the circle jerk.

I'm just happy because me weighing in meant that literally FIVES of people who'd otherwise ignore what I was up to checked me out. Unfortunately the fact that the first track on my newest release isn't one of the best hindered, I'm switching around the tracklist, bad form I know but sue me. It's not the best thing you'll ever hear, either, so maybe the deafening apathy is the correct response. Who is the best judge of their own work? I'm not just harping on about me because I'm a narcissistic wanker, I am but that's besides the point, just using it as an example.

As for phrases like "better" having no place that's true in theory and I do completely agree but without making some kind of value judgement we're just going "Well that's certainly music, isn't it?" back and forth. Which may be funny for a while but eventually it gets stale which is something this style of music should never do. The second everyone's agreeing what "witch house" is and you can pin it down, it has failed, like punk did when it started to mean UK Subs and not The Slits.
http://soundcloud.com/dan-wreck
neuroticwreck.bandcamp.com
Mood music for moodswings.

mmmmmmmm
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Re: Drama

Post by mmmmmmmm » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:53 pm

I'm getting the impression that this is directed at me, among others, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and give my two cents.

Usually I am really positive concerning music and community. However because I care about it a lot and have been a part of it since it's inception, I can get defensive and protective about the integrity of this genre. In retrospect, as much as I feel I have been a part of the process, it's pretty silly of me to think I could dictate what it should or shouldn't be. It does go deeper though and is more about my irritation with people making music for the wrong reasons, than it is about the authenticity of the music, no matter what genre.

A recent statement I made in another thread (JJ Brine discussion) sums up my feelings pretty well on the matter.

(from viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1492&start=15 )
mmmmmmmm wrote:
This brings up a subject that is the "3rd Wave" of bandwagon jumpers, people who are not otherwise occult in their expression, look, beliefs, etc, making music that is out of character for them because it's becoming more popular. These people are co-opting and not at all genuine in their approach. Usually I can sniff that out pretty easily. You can hear it in the music. When there is a lack of true belief and feeling, a lack of emotion and dedication to what is at the heart of the sound, the music suffers and ends up having this forced, contrived and half-assed emptiness. The artists usually overcompensate with an elaborate use of story and theme that doesn't really measure up to the music itself and is not an honest representation of who they really are as artists.
So it is easy for me to become reactionary when I sense that someone's music isn't authentic by way of a capitalistic approach. Many would say I shouldn't give it any energy and let these people have their way with it because who am I to tell someone what they should or shouldn't make? Honestly they are right. It would be illusory for me to believe that I have any control over such things in general. I am not a caretaker of any genre. But I will say that it is irritating to see someone present something that is all an act. Especially when it's obvious that someone is going out of their way to make something in a vein that is not in line with who they naturally are. Sure, it's fun to dabble in things that may inspire on surface level. But if your heart is not in it, that is communicated in the music and I don't know what could bother me more... When I hear something that is soulless, it makes me feel as though it shouldn't even exist. I know that I'm not alone in this matter. I feel very passionate about it because it seems a waste. When you ad on that someone is genre-jumping and is actually a "normal" who doesn't exactly fit the description of someone who would typically make the music in question, it becomes especially annoying. With that said, this is all just my interpretation and perception of course but I like to believe I'm a pretty good judge of character IRL and URL. I've been at this online music shit way too long to not notice when someone is being disingenuous because there was a time when I wrote the book on playing an online character for the sake of an alias I didn't yet feel comfortable with. I fully understand the mechanics of operating on that level. I'm also not apposed to someone taking on a new form out of true inspiration. It's exactly how I fell in to witch house. I just felt my inspiration was deep, meaningful and the right thing at the right time, rather than something I took a shot at for kicks.

Anton to be direct I'd like to say that it really isn't about what is in or out of the genre, it's about what is seemingly fake vs. genuine and of course for me defining that is a huge part of deciding what I do or do not like. I like what I feel and if there isn't moving feeling in something I just don't like it at all. It's the same reason I don't like Corny music. Cheesy music is God awful to me and there isn't anything I loathe more in the realm of modern music. This is why I actually like Okkvlt Kat a lot even though the artist is leaning on very traditional sounds and approach. I also absolutely LOVE ∆AIMON. I fell in love with them because of tracks that were 100% true and honest. As I became friends with Brant and Nancy, I discovered that they LIVE every bit of their sound... and that my friend is what it is all about.
Neurotic wrote:I think a few of us had made this point but it doesn't hurt to have it restated, it's nice to know when people're thinking along the right lines. However, there's no harm in a bit of drama. Healthy competition and animosity is good when you're creating, just as long as it doesn't start getting nasty. The "drama" basically started when a guy thought, as we all do from time to time and as you stated, "There's tonnes of beige bilge getting raved about, my stuff's a bit better than it, I'll show 'em". But instead of doing what a lot of us (me included) do and chickening out, just posting stuff up and going back to working on stuff and hoping people noticed, he "broke omerta" and actually stated that it was bullshit. It's good that he did because it provoked an interesting discussion and several people showed their true colours. As long as it doesn't get nasty and turn into personal vendettas, this isn't a bad thing. It did spill over a bit into getting personal which was a shame but it's a nice break between the self promotion and the circle jerk.
I think a bit of brutal honesty can be healthy. I'm not proud of my posts because to be honest I wrote them in a reactionary state. I'd rather be more deliberate in my dealings. But since I let it fly, I had to complete my course of action. On the contrary, the last statements I made that were an actual rebuttal in the 'wh1ch house?' thread i chose to delete after a week of no reaction. I figure it's clear where the dude is coming from and I no longer need to try and call him out about this or that. I get it, I found out who he is... Indeed his band is quite popular as of late and just as I suspected his WH project is a large departure from his band which does quite a bit of genre-jumping within itself. (they do anything from electro to hip hop beats to dubstep) so at this point I'd rather not have any harsh feelings even though there is a vast amount of name calling in that thread. I just don't care enough about it anymore. People are gonna do what they do and if it ends up representing the genre somehow then so be it. I was upset 2 years ago that people think that SALEM is all that WH is about... why should I care what it looks like to people in at this stage in the game? they can have it.
#missinglink

DIRGEFUNK
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Re: Drama

Post by DIRGEFUNK » Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:27 am

Anton Maiof wrote: That is called TASTE

"taste" & "opinion" are kind of an easy way out to not have to defend what you like/hate and why you think it's good/bad though.

Just because you like something doesn't mean it's good. And just because you hate something doesn't mean it's not good.
Example; I love The Wizard,.. it's a fucking horrible movie, but I like it. BUT I'd never ever defend it as being a good movie just because I enjoy it. I know it's shit.
If you're Into It, I'm Out Of It

Mcll
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Re: Drama

Post by Mcll » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:28 pm

I'll keep this short. I agree with most of what you all posted above. I think criticism is important, on both ends. The audience and the artist. No-one has perfected thier craft. No one is going to please everyone. I tend to take, and appreciate other artists that take, the road of humility. Do your best, put yourself into it. Don't gloat about it. Allow yourself criticism.

There is no accounting for taste.

But with that being said, I took offence to the general POV in that other thread that WH is following rules and generally making shitty music. I do not find this a fact at all, I actually feel there are more dedicated people making stronger music now, than 2-3 years ago when this style was more in the indie-spotlight. I felt WH? was completly off-base in his statements on that. I guess it makes sense where he may being coming from an adjacent electronic scene. Judging us in contrast. Still, that is not the attitude that goes over well in my experience.

Mcll
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Re: Drama

Post by Mcll » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:47 pm

Neurotic wrote:I'm just happy because me weighing in meant that literally FIVES of people who'd otherwise ignore what I was up to checked me out. Unfortunately the fact that the first track on my newest release isn't one of the best hindered, I'm switching around the tracklist, bad form I know but sue me. It's not the best thing you'll ever hear, either, so maybe the deafening apathy is the correct response. Who is the best judge of their own work? I'm not just harping on about me because I'm a narcissistic wanker, I am but that's besides the point, just using it as an example.
Uh..I really loved "Bind". I thought it was a cool opener and was going to ask you for a remix kit once shit calmed down.

Keep in mind- many of the artists that influenced what you are doing-the ones you have stated yourself, only had a small cult following early on and only had vision and persistence to keep them going. I think you have to ask yourself early on. Are you looking to be popular, or honest? The end result can sometimes be both, but the initial intentions are always either one, or the other.

I think that is what Strange Powers is also alluding to. Honesty and artistic integrity.

Neurotic
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:16 pm

Re: Drama

Post by Neurotic » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:24 am

I'm touched that you'd want a remix kit, I'll get you one sent out. I don't want to whinge on and on in the thread so I'll just put what I have to say in a message.
http://soundcloud.com/dan-wreck
neuroticwreck.bandcamp.com
Mood music for moodswings.

mmmmmmmm
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Re: Drama

Post by mmmmmmmm » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:47 am

Mcll wrote:I'll keep this short. I agree with most of what you all posted above. I think criticism is important, on both ends. The audience and the artist. No-one has perfected thier craft. No one is going to please everyone. I tend to take, and appreciate other artists that take, the road of humility. Do your best, put yourself into it. Don't gloat about it. Allow yourself criticism.
THIS

You'll get a lot more respect out of humbling yourself then you ever will from boasting about yourself. I don't care how good your music is.

Unless you're a rapper... but even then there is a separation from the boastfulness in the music compared to dealing with people in your scene. A lot of rappers are humble in person but arrogant on the mic.
#missinglink

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